The Brand Roots Podcast

How You Can Make the Jump to Freelancing with Matt Curtis | The Creative Grove

• Stump & Root co • Season 1 • Episode 3

Share episode

In this episode of The Creative Grove, Tim interviews Matt Curtis, a creative entrepreneur who shares his journey from working in church ministry to building his own freelance business. Matt discusses the challenges and rewards of freelancing, the importance of creativity in business, and how to navigate the fears associated with making the jump to freelance work. He emphasizes the need for structure, discipline, and a clear mission in order to succeed as a freelancer. The conversation also touches on the importance of learning from others and addressing personal fears in the entrepreneurial journey.

Takeaways

  • The Creative Grove focuses on real conversations with creatives.
  • Matt Curtis transitioned from church ministry to freelancing.
  • Creativity can be harnessed for meaningful missions.
  • Freelancing requires navigating the business side of creativity.
  • Addressing fears is crucial for making the jump to freelance.
  • Building a business is about more than just creativity.
  • Having a support system is essential for freelancers.
  • Freelancing is a survival skill that requires dedication.
  • It's important to learn from others in the field.
  • Success in freelancing comes from structure and discipline.



Tim (00:00)
The Creative Grove is where conversations with marketers, designers, and creators comes to life. Part of the Brand Roots podcast, this series brings your honest, insightful interviews with people shaping the creative and marketing landscape. From solo freelancers to brand builders, we explore the real stories behind the work, the wins, the lessons, and the creative sparks that drive growth. No scripts, no posturing.

Just real conversations about building, creating, and growing. On today's show, I have Matt Curtis. How you doing? Good. Of course. So Matt is someone who guides creatives through the challenges of building their own freelance business. You are a creative yourself. You do freelancing work yourself. So can you kind of talk about your experience and what led you to where you're at today?

Matt Curtis (00:29)
Good. Thanks for having me on.

Yeah, so I've been in the creative space right around 2002 was when I started kind of working with clients in some capacity. I was in college. I was an art major with an emphasis in graphic design. And so that was really kind of my first exposure. I was gonna originally pursue animation and I was more in the like film department kind of stuff. And eventually very, I don't know, I just.

seemed like kind of an on a whim decision. My roommate that I had just met, you know, move into college and it's like, what do you do? Or he's all, I'm going to be an art major. It's like, that sounds awesome. I'll do that too. So very, very calculated, you know, decision to jump into it. But as I started getting into these classes, I was like, this is the perfect blend of, of the creative side, which I love, but also the technical side, which I love. There's a, you know, a

Tim (01:22)
Yeah, yeah.

Matt Curtis (01:33)
just using the machine, using the computer well and learning the depths of how the machine functions and how you can leverage that to help you be creative. It's a really interesting balance between the two sides. so pursued that for all of my career, really worked at a church for most of that in creative ministry. So was a graphic designer then moved up to managing the communications team, then managing the creative ministry, which was online ministry, productions and communications. And so

really kind of broadened the scope of what I was learning and trying to figure out, like, how do we approach this creatively? And so all of that really then led up to me stepping off of church staff and trying to figure out how do I continue to contribute to the ministry that the church is doing, but not on a church staff. And so in some senses, it felt a little bit like this, is this even possible? But it actually has turned out to be

a real delight for me, because now I get to work with a lot of different organizations, and I don't have to limit it to just the church. And so it's been a really kind of a rich season building a business that helps churches take advantage of creative for the purpose of ministry. And so if you want to boil it down, it's how do we latch or hook the horsepower of creativity to a mission of some sort?

Obviously in the church's case, there's a there's a mission. They have the mission of the gospel that they're trying to move forward. But, creativity really is a, is a powerful way to deliver any message. And so after doing that for a couple of years, I have a business called lunchtime heroes. That's the one that works with churches. believe it or not, that makes no sense according to the name itself, but too bad I got to name it that's what I picked. So, but, but over the last couple of years, as I work with

creatives, but have, always have this conversation at the beginning to say, you know, how do get the most out of the creative ministry in your church? I'm usually working with the creative themselves. And so part of that is how do you build a bridge with leadership that maybe doesn't understand creative like you do. And the beginning of the conversation is always, this is going to be a hard road building these bridges and kind of making this work. Is this something that you want to lean into or is stepping off of staff?

kind of your next step. The first couple years, everybody was in like, we're gonna make it work, we want to invest. And then in the last year, almost every conversation I've had has the answer to that question has been I want to move on. But I don't know what to move on to. And so as I had more of those kind of like, that's interesting. Tell me more about that. That's really where jump to freelance emerged, which is now the business that I'm building kind of concurrently. And it's really meant to be how do I help a creative

navigate the business side of making the jump to freelance. And so it's not like, Hey, let's open up Illustrator together and figure out how to use the pen tool. You know, it's not really like, love that. I love teaching in that way, but, really it's, Hey, how do you even like come up with pricing? Like, what does it look like to navigate working with clients? Do you have to be dancing on Tik TOK in order to get leads? Like it's really just addressing some of those, what, I usually call just fears and those barriers that

Tim (04:18)
haha

Yeah.

Yeah.

Matt Curtis (04:39)
prevented me for a really long time. Cause I've always loved business. I've always wanted to do something, but I've never, I was never able to get over a lot of the mental hurdles, you know, like those fears and insecurities life kind of pushed me. I have a podcast called the jet moment. I don't feel like I had a jump moment. had a you've been pushed moment. And so it's a little bit of a misnomer there, but, but yeah, just helping, helping kind of educate in those areas to build some of that confidence so that

Tim (04:58)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (05:07)
you can go and live your dream in that sense of building a business that supports the things that you believe in. And so there is still a mission component, whatever you believe in as a creative, that's what I think you should hook your creative horsepower to. And when you build your own thing, you have a little bit more freedom in being able to do that.

Tim (05:25)
Wow. So with being a creative yourself, what you said you kind of went into college with, you know, what, what was your

background with entrepreneurship or business? there any at all? Was it just some foreign concept or how was that for you?

Matt Curtis (05:38)
Yeah.

Yeah. I've always sort of felt like the black sheep in my family a little bit. What's fascinating to me, my immediate family was not very entrepreneurial, but I kept hearing these like almost like quiet rumblings like, yeah, well, you your great uncle did this or, yeah, your cousin over here did this. like, so I think there's more of an entrepreneurial thread that runs somewhere in my family. It just was sort of.

wasn't quite hidden from me, but my immediate family was not that. But I think it's one of those things that really is just kind of wired into you. You're either wired to do this or you're not. And that began expressing itself. My mom was going through old photos recently and she sent a photo of me and my brother. I couldn't have been more than five or six. And we were going around the neighborhood. We picked the cherry tomatoes in the backyard.

We put them in baskets like strawberry baskets and we went literally, went door to door selling cherries, cherry tomatoes to the neighbors. I remember when, uh, recycling started becoming a big deal, at least in, uh, in California. don't know how it was structured other places. You know, they charged you when you bought your, your sodas. And then you go to these giant machines that look like vending machines and you would put all the cans in manually one at a time. It was a hassle, but you got two and a half cents per can.

And so I would go to all the neighbors and I'd say, hey, I'm out collecting cans. You know, can I have your cans basically? So then I would go to the machines and cash them in. And so as I look back over my life, I got in trouble in elementary school because I would go to the 99 cents store. I'd buy four packs of bubble gum for a dollar. Then I'd sell them at school for 50 cents. So I'd be doubling my money every time, you know, and like one of the one of the aides is like, you can't run a business here. I'm like, thought this was a capitalistic society, man. Like, give me a break, you And so

So it was always something that I was pursuing. And I think there's this battle that I know for me that I fought for, I mean for 20 years, this battle of security, kind of perceived security, now as I'm living life in a different sort of way, having my own business, but like, man, that steady paycheck, like you're a fool if you give that up. And...

And I think that was a really hard one for me to get over to, think, to like, to choose to let go of it. It just felt wildly irresponsible. And it's been really interesting on the other side. I'm sure it's one of those things where you just see it a little bit differently since you don't have a job that way. And I feel like everybody that I know is getting laid off or, businesses are closing or like, like something is happening where it's disrupting the stability of what used to be like.

the way that you find stability in life. And so I think that for me has really kind of shaken, it's shaken my perspective of it quite a bit, I'm sure. And I didn't even go through that, you know what I mean? It wasn't even like I was laid off and now all of a sudden I doubt it. But I'm just looking around and I'm thinking, man, I did not expect these industries to be impacted that way. And so, yeah.

Tim (08:20)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, I think that

it's this false sense of security that people have with traditional full-time jobs. know, like I went through this myself with I was working a full-time job and we get laid off and then you go from making good money to making nothing. you know, and even kind of going back to what you're saying, like with the luxuries of having a full-time job, like 401k and you get, you know, the

Matt Curtis (08:46)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tim (08:55)
hourly, you know, you get all these different benefits from these nice jobs, you know, that you're conditioned to say, like, that's what everyone else does. That's what you should do. And any deviation from that is weird and wrong. And it's but I'm like, there's no true security in really anything, you know, like freelance and, and working for someone else. It's both of these are risky. And, and so that's kind of, you know, that lead into

Matt Curtis (09:12)
Yep, yeah.

Tim (09:20)
the next thing here, it's like, you have to kind of choose the difficult, choose the hardest people say like, is your heart gonna be working for someone else? And maybe you hate working under someone because they don't know what they're doing or talking about. And you're kind of treated like some commodity, or you work for yourself and you have to manage yourself, you have to do the technical work, but then you also have to do the entrepreneurial aspects and growing the business and so on and so forth. So

Matt Curtis (09:24)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tim (09:46)
So what has that been like for you when you made that jump? What's that been like?

Matt Curtis (09:49)
Yeah.

It's funny because on one hand when you have a job and you have a very singular focus, you think to yourself, that's crazy. Like I couldn't do all of those things. And I think for me, I'm realizing more and more I was frustrated in my job because I couldn't do all those things. this isn't to paint a perfect picture of...

Tim (10:00)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (10:11)
running your own business. There's plenty of months where you're like, I don't know if the numbers are going to work. You know what mean? Like, maybe I have to apply for a job even if I don't want to. So like, that's real, like that's a real part of it. But there's something really powerful about knowing that you can actually contribute to the outcome in a meaningful way. And so it really kind of struck me and a lot of a lot of our decision to move into freelance, I say that because my wife has chronic health.

challenges and issues that she's wrestled with over the years. That was a piece of what moved us from California to Pennsylvania. Just the climate is so much better here health-wise and making that jump to having your own thing and having to solve insurance on your own was terrifying. It's like that was really the thing. Paycheck was stable and that was comfortable, but really was health insurance. And what we realized is that we could actually solve that problem. And when we got to solve the problem,

we got to choose a really hyper optimized solution based on the specific stuff that would be beneficial for my wife. And so that was just a really small example of I could do that in everything. And now to go the really silly shallow side of it, I can go to bed at two in the morning and wake up at 10 in the morning and that's okay. I could choose that.

It's everywhere in between. And so I think for me, that's been, that's been a really, really, it's been just, it's, it's really activated me in terms of all of me gets to invest in what I'm doing. And like, I'm having a conversation just this morning, somebody on LinkedIn reached out to me and they're like, Hey, have you thought about automating every part of your business? And I'm like, I have. Yeah. And I I'm not going to.

He's like, but scalability. And I'm like, right, but that's not the business that I'm building. I wanna have a few clients and I wanna be able to go really deep with those clients. That's what I want. That, that's where I do my best work, where I'm able to go really deep on a problem. I'm able to get into these really specific and kind of almost abnormal parts of the problem that an organization is experiencing and helping solve it.

Like that's the work that I love doing. That's how God has built me and wired me is to solve problems like that. And if I have 75 clients when I'm churning out a postcard for each of them, like that's just not where I do my best work. And so I'm able to now build everything about my business to almost like force me into those situations where I do the better work. And I think that's the part that.

leaning into the entrepreneurial side of it and having to do everything for me, I actually say it is like, no, no, no, I get to do everything. And so then I can position everything to really help me be the best version of help that I can be based on again, how I'm wired, how I'm built, how I'm skilled, even how I'm experienced on some levels, you know, the types of experiences I've had, all of that gets pointed into solving these problems for, you know, for organizations. And so

Yeah, to me, it's the ideal. I love it.

Tim (13:08)
Well, it kind of harkens back to what you saying about the mission. Like your mission is to help these select people, like you're saying, in a deeper way, you're not trying to build some massive organization that it's mostly automized and you're kind of reaping a lot of money from just squeezing people, but you really want to do the good work in a more profound way.

Matt Curtis (13:27)
Yeah.

Yeah,

and I don't have an issue of somebody's goal is to say, I want to build a mega corp. Like that's great, man. Like I had a conversation with somebody recently who they are building a business that gives other people opportunities. That's fantastic. I like, I love it. think it's a phenomenal mindset. One of the things I've wrestled a lot with in my career is that, and I think this is, this is a real challenge for creatives. think our goal.

Tim (13:43)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Curtis (13:54)
just our kind of self-driven or self-given goal as a creative is to become a craftsman. Like we want to become a master of our trade. And you have to approach your trade in order to become a master. You have to do it. And I think that the tension that I ran into as a designer, so I designed for 10 years as like the designer, and then they're like lead a team of designers. And in my head, I'm thinking, this is awesome.

And then I realized, you mean give away the design work. Got it. So what am I now? Like who even am I anymore? And it was a good season in certain ways, but you have to be practicing your trade in order to continue to improve and grow. And I think that's the thing that I would rather at the end of my life, I would rather be able to be that person that can help.

Tim (14:22)
Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Matt Curtis (14:43)
with really specific, really kind of acute problems in an organization creatively, as opposed to just saying like, I trained a bunch of people who did a bunch of stuff. and, again, that's a great ambition too. And I do think there's a balance. You always want to be investing in other people, all those things, but like there's something about owning craftsmanship and quality myself that I think is really important. And I have found I am very dissatisfied if I'm not investing in some way, or form in that.

So yeah, so I think that's a piece of it for me is I want to continue to get better myself and I can now build a business that lets me do that.

Tim (15:18)
Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's a big thing. I when people, when creative specifically, they start to advance in their careers, they go from the technician, the people who do the work, the technical work, and they love doing that. And the only real way to increase their value or the amount of money they're making is to stop doing the thing they love and start directing other people to do it. And so it's this dilemma of like, do I want to be the technical technician or do I want to be the manager?

And of course you could do both. I think there's a way to do both. But a lot of times you have to make a choice, make more money, stop doing the thing I love or continue to the love thing I love and make a little bit less money. And

Matt Curtis (15:56)
Yeah,

yeah, absolutely. So I played for early in my life, I played baseball. So part of the reason I didn't have a goal in my life going to school, going to college was because baseball was my goal. And so it didn't matter what major I was because I was planning on playing baseball for as long as possible. You cannot tell me that being at bat in the bottom of the ninth, two outs, bases loaded,

down by three series on the line. Like you can't tell me that managing is the same as standing in the batter's box. It's not that managing is bad. And it's not that, you know, being in the batter's box is good, but there's something that drives you to be the person in the batter's box or on the mound staring that guy, you know what I mean? Like, should I be in him? Should I not like the person making those decisions? There's just something different about that being in that position.

Tim (16:26)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (16:46)
And I think there are a lot of things I loved about leading a creative team. There are a lot of real stretching things are really like tapped into even some of the skills that I have that I didn't realize like, man, I really should lean into this, but execution still as part of it. And so yes, a hundred percent. When, somebody told me that kind of bluntly, said,

we didn't move you to lead this team so that you could just keep doing this work and you get paid more for it. And I'm thinking in my mind, I'm like, no, that's literally how it should work. Like I'm better now, you know what I mean? It's like pay me to be better at my job. They're like, we want you to create more versions of you. And I was like, that's the grossest thing anybody's ever said about the creative process. so, yeah, I just think, I think creatives often just look at this stuff differently.

Tim (17:24)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Matt Curtis (17:30)
I can never create a creative clone of myself. Like that's not what I ever want to do. When I'm teaching, I want to be empowering a creative to become who they are as a creative. And I think that's kind of the misnomer when it comes to the like, it's a little bit more of a like manufacturing assembly line kind of mindset where it's like, you've assembled 25 widgets. Now we want to have you train this person who only makes 12 to learn how to make 25. And it's like,

Tim (17:55)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (17:57)
I get that if I was building cars, but I'm not. And this person over here has a very unique perspective. They have a different personal story that's brought them to this point. They have, in some cases, even a different value set. They're passionate about different things. Their approach to creative problems is different than me. And it should be because that diversity makes life better and more rich. So I can train them on some things.

But really the training is like the, it's that rocket platform where they can then propel off of it. But I should never, you know, govern and override what it is that they want to be doing or even how they're built and wired and skilled as a creative. so that's why, know, like I love seeing the stuff that you're creating. Like I, I, I love seeing how you're able to capture such richness in these like kind of like industrial environments. I'm like,

I saw a post recently, was like people building a, I think it was like a pergola or something. And I was like, how the heck is he taking pictures that make it look so good? Like, but you have a knack for that and you have a skill for that and you have an ability for that. I don't like, that's not, I take pictures of blades of grass with a macro lens. Like that's what I do. And it's like, you'd look at that and you're like, that's super weird. I probably stepped on four of those today on my shoot of the pergola, you know, but I think that's the beauty of it. Hand two people a camera.

Tim (19:07)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (19:17)
you're gonna get completely unrelated and distinct work because of the eye that's kind of looking through that lens. So think for me, that's kind of the beauty of the creative realm. And that's where, of course, for me, the business, the building your own thing, the entrepreneurial side of it, it just lets you say, what am I good at? What do I have a knack for? And then how do I build so that that can get activated and

And how can I benefit as many people as possible from that?

Tim (19:45)
So these people that you're talking with, let's even just take a step back. People who are creatives, you know, these people that you help with on a daily basis. How do know it's the time to make the jump? You know, even outside yourself, any kind of creative, they're like, I'm working in this field or I'm working in completely unrelated field. At what point do you say can and should I make a jump into freelance or should I even ever make a jump into freelance?

Matt Curtis (20:09)
Yeah, yeah, I think there's a couple layers for me. I think for a lot of people, they're forced. I think sometimes circumstances just prompt you. know, for us, my wife had a conversation and they said, hey, here's a treatment plan that we think would be really helpful. So we looked at it, our insurance didn't cover it. It was gonna be 1500 bucks a month out of pocket. And so we just looked at each other and I said, for the first time ever, going freelance feels like the least.

Risky financial decision that that's ahead of us and we both were pretty quick to agree like I mean Yeah, you know, she's like I hope you're ready for this because you know, you've been wanting this for a long time Now's your shot, you know, so in a lot of in a lot of respects a lot of people are pushed You know, it's I've laid off. I'm let go Companies downsizing company goes out of business Insurance, you know health consequence or you know health circumstance changes

The consequence for us was like, the current insurance does not provide for this. So for us, that made sense. So there's a pragmatic reason that pushes people. When you have something that is stable, I think there's two tensions. The first is stability can dull your ability to dream. I always said that it steals my soul. It's a little dramatic, but mean, hey, that's what creatives do, right? We just sort of upsize everything little bit. So yeah.

Tim (21:22)
We are drama queens.

Matt Curtis (21:24)
So for me, there's a point where you can become really kind of like creatively doled out. And I think that's actually just, I know that there's no health diagnosis that fits in this category. But I really do think that there's a soul problem that kind of emerges with creatives when we're stuck in work that isn't allowing us to do what it is that we're built to do. And I would probably say that most people are that way on some level.

creatives seem to be really hyper sensitive to it. And so like you put me in a mail room, like I'm a struggle, you know, you put me in a room, honestly, you put me in like a crisis situation. I'm going to thrive because I have to come up with creative solutions quickly to solve some of these problems. So there, there, there's a degree of like self-assessment to say like, how am I doing internally? Like am I in a good place or a bad place? So that's one indicator for me is like, dude, I'm just, I feel like I'm burning out. Okay. Well, then you need to like, don't just accept that you're burning out.

start thinking about how do I not burn out? I had a project when I was on staff somewhere and I called it my anti rage quit project. It was a card game that some friends and I made and we funded it on Kickstarter. I mean, we went really far with this thing in order to keep me from rage quitting, but it was really what was happening was I wasn't given any creative opportunity. I was still graphic designer, but I was basically given tasks to execute and I wasn't able to contribute to the process.

So really I became like a production artist or a production designer. And it's like, sorry, like that's just not where I do my best work. And I felt that really brutally. So then I was like, let's come up with a hyper creative project on the outside. So the, if that's a place that you're in, to me, start building something on the side. And so I think that's the other part of this is that it doesn't have to be a jump moment of such like catastrophic consequences.

Tim (22:47)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (23:12)
building something on the side is actually a really, really smart way to test. Do I love this or not? Because you may dream of freelance because you don't know what it is. And everything that you dream of is way better when it's, you know, it's kind of like going somewhere on vacation and be like, I should live here. And you're like, guess what? Your car still breaks down here and at home. So it's like, the rental car was great. That's actually really the problem. I need a new car. Yeah. and so I think

I think building something on the side is a really smart way for you to test your ideas and it starts getting some wins under your belt, but it just validates. Is this something that I should do or not? And then kind of the stereotypical advice is have six months of savings, you know, in the bank. I I'm a huge believer and this is, is what I recommend to people when I, when I have a call with them. If you have money in the bank, you know, if you have some, some degree of savings, or even if, know, you have a spouse that works in some cases, that's a really helpful way.

How little can you live on? That's a very practical first step. And then what is it going to take for you to build your first offer? Something. And then who in your life can you pitch that to? Like I'm not talking hard sales or anything like that. I'm saying people in your life that know you, do they, you do you know anybody that you've worked with in the past? people that are in an industry that you want to serve. So for me, as a very practical example, I come from the church world.

I know how to talk church language. I know the problems that churches face in the areas of communication and visual communication. So when I started Lunchtime Heroes, I said, okay, who are the people that I worked with over the years that I had a good relationship with? I wrote down all their names. Let's say, I don't remember how it was, let's say 10 people. And then I thought about each of them and I said, where are they right now and what role are they in in their organization? Okay, that person's an executive pastor. What are the types of problems an executive pastor has?

That person's a comm director. What are the problems a comm director has? That person is a worship guy. Great. What kind of problems does a worship guy have? And can I solve any of those things? And then I sent each of them an email based on what they're doing. Hey, I see you're an XP over at this church over here. Like, just want to let you know if you ever need any help because your comm guy's a jerk and gotten three fist fights this week. Like, I'm doing some consulting work to help people be less jerky as creatives. you know, and then for the designer, it's like, hey, if you can't

If you don't have time for lunch, it's actually the name of lunchtime heroes. If you don't have time to take your lunch, talk to me, let's, let's figure out some ways to streamline your processes. I can take work for you, you know, do some outside work, some retainer work, whatever. But what you're doing is you're, you're leaning into kind of validate and test this entrepreneurial idea before you make the commitment before you not necessarily burn bridges. Cause I don't think you should burn bridges, even if you're leaving, but, but begin dabbling in it. And so that's actually my biggest premise is.

just start preparing for it. Like I'm not even saying quit anything. I'm saying start negotiating some of these things a little bit more seriously. How would you handle this if it was a business conversation instead of a hobby conversation? Cause think a lot of times, like I was so scared of pricing early in my career that when somebody said, Hey Matt, can you do this, you know, off the clock, like side project, I wouldn't even give them a price. I would either say I'm doing it for free or

I will do it for whatever you decide to pay me for. And in my head, I'm like, I did it. I cracked the code. This is how you don't have to worry about it. You know? And so now I could tell you with full, like full transparency, that model doesn't pay the bills. So instead, like there are ways that you can figure this stuff out, you know? And so not to, you know, not to hawk my wares kind of thing, but like I have a pricing calculator. It's free, but like it helps you figure out what's a good baseline to price myself.

Tim (26:20)
Yeah

Yep.

Matt Curtis (26:46)
And like there are answers to the questions that you're wrestling with. I know for me, I got stuck in thinking about the questions, but not actually addressing the questions. I think that's the thing that that's usually the best indicator as to whether or not you're ready to make the jump is am I willing to lean in and have some of these hard conversations? Because I built stuff that didn't work. I created offers that didn't work. I ran, you know, even with lunchtime heroes, I recently

Tim (27:05)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (27:13)
revamped the way that I present my services to churches. That's after three years. You don't just solve the problem and then become freelance and you win now. You're constantly iterating and changing and adjusting and evolving because the market's changing and your customers are changing and the needs that they have are changing. so just leaning into starting really negotiating some of these things is usually the best indicator for me that

Okay. Yeah, build something on the side and see how it goes. And what I continually hear as I have conversations with people is man, I, I just started doing this thing and like somebody asked me to do it and then somebody else asked me to do it. And then another person asked me to do it. I'm like, that's called a business. You're doing it. Keep doing it. You know, so

Tim (27:51)
That's how works, yeah.

Yeah, that's.

I think like before I, you know, cause I worked for myself and it's, I was one of those people that I did, you know, creative work in churches. I did everything for free, you know, cause that's what you're supposed to do. And, um, you know, I was on worship teams. was doing the creative work and video photo, everything and, and design work. And, I think one of the biggest fears that I had just in general growing up was

Matt Curtis (28:06)
Yeah. Yeah. Ministry, baby.

Tim (28:21)
Can I provide for my family? You know, I think I would say 99 % of men that's their big fear is can I provide for my family? And for me before it was can I even get a job that would provide for my family? And then the next step after that was when I fantasized about creating my own studio was like, am I going to be able to be a good enough everything to work for myself, get the work done, message

you know, get clients and you know, all the different levels of entrepreneurship business and you know, that was and I know I'm sure that's everyone's fear. And just because you know, we both have been there like, can I do this and make money? And and I think some of the biggest fears

It's just because it's too unknown. You know, it's all of it's unknown. Like I think, like I remember when I first moved out on my own, like right before I moved out my own, was, I had the same kind of anxiety, which is like, all right, well, what if this happens? What if I can't pay rent? What if, what if somehow I lose my job and I can't pay for my apartment? What if, I run out of, out of toilet paper, what's going to happen? You know, I'm just like, like literally those are my fears. like, well, you

Matt Curtis (29:28)
Yeah.

Tim (29:28)
go to the store, you

Matt Curtis (29:30)
Yeah.

Tim (29:30)
know, and you get more stuff or you go to unemployment or you know, like worst comes to worst, you use couch surf or whatever, you know, like your life isn't over. There are challenges in life and and same thing with freelance. It's like like you were saying at the beginning, like it's hard if you lose your job, even though you had the the illusion of stability, you know, because I think it keeps us safe, like having a nine to five

safe job is safe, you know, and that's something that Sarah she was talking about, my co founder or something like her. She was always told get the safe job, get the big girl job. That's the thing that's going to pay your bills. Don't you don't need to be working whatever silly jobs you're doing for yourself. But then people get laid off, you know, like, and so kind of to bring that back to what you're saying before, like

We have all these fears and it's all these unknowns. And so in what ways are you addressing those fears for people making the jump?

Matt Curtis (30:26)
think, you know, there's a couple of things I think, you know, one fear I often see is, um, you know, I've done a lot of things over the years, but I don't know if, if I could do entrepreneurial stuff. And so one of the ways to kind of dismantle that a little bit is just to kind of point out here are some of the things that. I mean, I, I hear in your story that are skill sets or attributes that will serve you well, you know, in, the entrepreneurial side of things. Uh, I think.

when it comes to stuff like pricing or taxes or what kind of licenses do I need, stuff like that. it, it legitimately is pick up the phone and call somebody, call a CPA, find, find a tax guy and say, Hey, can I buy an hour of your time and just ask you the dumbest questions you've ever heard about the most basic things. And they'll be like, no, these are all great questions, you know, partly because they're paid to, to field those questions. But, but also because

Tim (31:18)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (31:21)
It's okay to have legitimate questions. Like it's okay for something like that to be a hurdle for you in making a jump. The real inflection point though is are you gonna do something about it? That's really what differentiates success from failure. It's not encountering the problem, know? Like you're even saying, it's not about not having clients. I don't know if I've talked to a business owner that hasn't gone through a...

either a season or in some cases, multiple businesses where things didn't work out and they keep going. They keep trying. It's not like I had my shot at starting a business. It didn't work and therefore I'm now a nine to five guy again. The vast majority of these people are like, yeah, no, I learned a ton on my first failed business. Now I know what I should do differently, you know? And so I feel fortunate in that Lunchtime Heroes isn't failing.

I will say it is not the business that I intended it to be. And so in some senses, you know, part of what I'm trying to build with jumped freelance is a reflection of a lot of what I've learned from lunchtime heroes. And I'm fortunate in that that business is still able to sustain us, you know, financially, like I'm still able to work it. I wanted it to be this, like, I'm to go deeply into an organization and help them repair a damaged communications team.

And really it's like, hey, we're overloaded. Can you do design work for us? And it's like, yeah, I can. you know what I mean? It's like, you're shooting for the moon and they're like, oh yeah, we actually just need air on our tires. It's like, well, if you'll pay me, I guess I'll do it, you know? And so, you know, there's a practicality there to that. But I think even in that is fear. Like, I could have been afraid that Lunchtime Heroes wouldn't be the business that I wanted it to be.

Tim (32:45)
Alright.

Matt Curtis (33:04)
But instead, I've just constantly tweaked and adjusted and kind of refined so that I can still accomplish the mission, which is to help churches in the area of creative ministry. But I'm just doing it in a way that's a little bit different. And so I think for me, what I've found is that when I'm on a call with a client and they say, can you do such and such, there's always fear. Like I've been doing this for 20 years and there's still fear. And I don't know when this is launching, but.

From now in a week and a half. I'm flying out to Texas and I'm branding two churches Concurrently over a like a five or six day stretch. I'm terrified. I'm like, what am I doing? and and and the reality is that The only way you know if you can pull it off is by doing it And so when it comes to the freelance thing and should I start my own business? Should I make the jump? the the biggest thing that I have found is that

Tim (33:45)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (33:52)
You can't actually answer most of the questions that have sort of elevated themselves to the point of fear without doing it. Like you just, can't, you can't know academically if you can succeed. The only way you can do it is by jumping. And I know it sounds so dramatic, but I say that as somebody who has jumped and then looked back, because now I have to solve these problems, right? I have to solve the problem of insurance. I have to solve the problem of

Tim (33:58)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (34:18)
somewhat steady income to keep you know to keep us afloat and And looking back now. I'm like, whoa, the insurance thing was way easier than I thought wow taxes are a lot easier I than I thought because I hired a CPA to do that like you can solve problems that way You don't have me like I don't know how to do this great hire somebody to help you a coach Take a course what I like there are so many pathways But it seems that until we're in the position where we have to solve it

We choose to let it be a fear that's too big for us. And then it just keeps us from jumping. So really what's happening is I'm afraid of solving the problem of taxes. I'm not afraid of taxes. I'm afraid of doing the work that it takes to solve the problem of taxes. It's like, okay, but pause for a second. Really though? Like, cause I bet you can, you know what I mean? I bet you can figure this out, whether it's hire a service or a CPA, know, there's all these different services that do this stuff for you.

if it's learn it yourself, I bet you can, I bet most people can do that. And so I think it really is kind of like dismantling the structure around the actual fear, calling out what is the actual fear. And then in a lot of ways, like, man, do a couple Google searches, talk with your favorite robot, chat with you or whatever. I bet you can get to the root of some of these things pretty quickly. And so then it becomes, oh, this is more of a commitment decision.

Tim (35:24)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (35:38)
And that's where I like the build something on the side because then it's like, look, you're not, you're not burning the ships, you know, though for some people you do have to do that. Like some personalities are such that if I have the comfort of something, I'm just going to hold on so tightly unless it's ripped out of my hands. And that's what the layoffs do. That's what the downsizing does. You know, that's what the insurance cost did for me. Like, so some of us are that way, but, but I still think there's wisdom, even if you don't have an immediate plan to make the job, I still think there's a ton of wisdom.

Tim (35:41)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Matt Curtis (36:05)
in learning how to operate a business, learning how to build client base, make revenue outside of your paycheck. You know, one of the quips that I say often is, freelance is a survival skill. Like you have to learn how to make money because if you lose your job, if you get laid off, if you're busy, you know, somebody's business goes under whatever. If you have the skillset of knowing how to generate revenue, even if it's going to yard sales, you know, not to be all Gary V on it, but

Like even if it's going to yard sales and flipping stuff, you know what mean? Like I did that in college all the time. You know, I go to the thrift store and buy some random stuff that looked expensive and hope I got it right, you know, but, like there's just so many things we can do to generate revenue. So yeah.

Tim (36:36)
Yeah.

Yeah,

I

I think with people are afraid of the idea more so than the actual thing. Like we just build up these, these things into monsters where when we, like I said about the apartment thing, I'm like, like the solution is, I just, I'll find another job. There'll be another job. I I'll just go to the store and get more toilet paper, you know, like, you know, and I, that goes for every single step of the way where

Matt Curtis (36:52)
Yeah.

Tim (37:12)
You know, it's kind of like, you know, the storytelling skill like that, know, that Steven Spielberg really pioneered, think, especially, mean, Alfred Hitchcock, but Steven Spielberg with Jaws. And actually I'm wearing a Jaws shirt under this sweater. And the shark is so much scarier when he's not seen, you know? And then, you know, and look, I love Jaws, but it looks a little silly when he gets to very end. like, all right, that's clearly a dated animatronic, but.

Matt Curtis (37:34)
Yeah. Yeah,

here.

Tim (37:37)
It's like, but then you actually see it and you're like, Oh, well, it's not as scary as I thought. Like, it's still pretty scary. A giant shark is scary still, but seeing him in the shadows and, know, at him going, getting people on the beach, like that's scary. That's horrifying. And that's what making the jump into freelance is. It's this horrifying thing. Cause you don't know the inner workings of it. You just have the, like, you see the fin of it. You see like the, ripple of the water and

And so on only until you get applied wisdom where you're like, you know what, actually it's pretty manageable. It just, it really comes down to systems and making sure that my systems are at work, you know, cause I think that's been one of the biggest lessons for me and Sarah. Cause this will be our first year we're finishing up our first year with Stumpin' in a couple of weeks. And it's like, we made it. You know, we're doing it. It's like,

Matt Curtis (38:24)
amazing.

Tim (38:29)
It's like, you know, the the one flying a plane for the first time, it's like, oh, we were doing it. We're still flying. And, you know, and I would say a lot of people probably say this, but building running a business is like building a plane while you're flying the plane. And it could be scary, but it's like, all right, we have to keep this thing in the air. How do we do this? Let's try to get some more thrust. Let's try to make the wings wider. Let's try to make the, you know, the propulsion stronger and

Matt Curtis (38:45)
Yeah.

Tim (38:56)
and let's get some other people to come up here so we can help sustain it. And so everything's so much scarier when we don't know it. But I think one of the biggest things that helped me with freelancing now, or I mean, it's not technically freelancing, know, it's just like, it's small business with a couple of people in it, but in theory it is, you know, still freelancing. like the biggest thing that helped me was years before,

Matt Curtis (39:12)
Yeah.

Tim (39:19)
I was learning. I didn't just make the jump and like, all right, I'll figure out how to do business. I'll figure out how to, I'll learn about everything on the fly. And there's still a component to that, but cause practical wisdom, like what you're doing it, you learn it in a different way than hearing it theoretically. And you know, like it's one thing to like read the book of Job and see Job's trials and tribulation tribulations and stuff. But it's a whole nother thing to

Matt Curtis (39:42)
Yeah.

Tim (39:45)
lose your family and to have your house burned down and all your crops destroyed. You know, like those are two very different things. And so, you know, with, with freelancing and business ownership, it's like, was pouring in the time learning about the business of design, learning the business of other businesses and learning about the practical and technical skills, like you're saying, like educating yourself and, and that really helped me get confidence.

Matt Curtis (39:48)
Yeah.

Tim (40:09)
you know, like one of the biggest influence. mean, there's so many Brady Shearer was like one of the first people that kind of got me into that mindset. was a pretty sure it does a church centered media and stuff. And, and then after that was Chris Doe, which is I'm still a huge fan of his. And he's really like, I've ever seen his first video of like the whiteboard stuff. And it was like pricing cause I was like, well, how do you price this stuff? Cause it's, it's, that's probably the biggest thing.

Matt Curtis (40:29)
You

Yeah, yeah.

Tim (40:34)
that for every creative, like how do I price the work I'm doing? And, and there were so many people that then from there I learned Alex Hermosy and I learned about, you know, Russell Brunson and all these business guys. I've read all their books and I'm like, now I have a different level of confidence. I didn't have because I I'm learning from people who've gone through it. And I think the temptation is to only learn from ourselves and like, Hey, I can only learn the hard way. It's like,

sure, you know, I think it'll stick. But from like, well, let's learn as much as we can without having to go through the hardship. And so what's like that been like for you, like, for yourself, but then also for showing other people, you know, for that kind of wisdom.

Matt Curtis (40:59)
Yeah, yeah, if you can afford it, that's fine.

Yeah.

Yeah, think, yeah, I mean, for me, I'm very much the same way. Like I was, I was reading stuff, watching stuff, engaging in stuff. I mean, way, way before I was actually doing anything, you know, kind of substantial. The biggest thing for me really came when I, I started a coffee roasting. was, was a hobby that I've course pushed to the limits of hobby.

So I branded the thing. I'm selling bags of coffee. Like I'm on the brink of partnerships with coffee shops. You know, like that's the, that's where I was at. And I really began understanding the mechanics of business in a different way by just by doing something with all of that information. And what it really helped me do is it helped me weed out the information that wasn't helpful or immediately applicable to the way that I want to make a business.

So like I'll use Gary Vee as an example. I listened to a ton of his content early on just because he was really talking about the value of reach in digital. And that was a message that I was, I mean, preaching if I could, to the staff at our church to say there's an opportunity here because people are spending their time. So I really resonated with what he was saying in that regard. I hard disagree with hustle culture. Like I am on the opposite end. I'm like,

Tim (42:27)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (42:27)
try to work as little as you can. Like, I mean, works good and all that. But you know what I mean? Like prioritize the things in life that are more important for me, family, my, my wife, loving my wife, like Christ loves the church, raising my kids, training them in the way they should go. Like those are the things that I care more about. So I'm trying to build a business that reflects those values, but, but it, really is, you know, once you start getting into it and once you start seeing kind of the nuts and bolts of things,

Tim (42:31)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (42:53)
You can decide what areas are important to invest in, what areas aren't. And so then similarly for those who are kind of trying to get into this or wrestling with some of those things, I think, at least my approach is let's have the conversation about the things that you are afraid of or that you are concerned about the concerns that you do have, because until you address those, you're not really going to be able to think clearly about your business. You're going to build somebody else's business. You're not going to build your business.

And so similar to what we're talking about creativity, like I don't want to create mini-mes creatively. I don't want somebody who just replicates my style. I want somebody who is empowered and equipped to understand, and in some cases, even just discover their own style. I view the same thing when it comes to business. And so I think that there should be businesses that offer a premium product. I think that it's great that there are businesses that offer a mass produced cheaper product. I think it's great.

Tim (43:28)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (43:45)
there are businesses that are somewhere in between. think it's great that there are businesses that are like hyper customized. I think it's great that there are businesses that are like, this is the package that we sell, take it or leave it. And so all of those factors to me, I think make a really rich and diverse ecosystem and economy. So I think it's great that all of those things exist. so until somebody is really willing to address the fears or the concerns, or even just clarify the values that they have going in, they're not going to build the right business for them.

they're going to build a business that eventually they feel trapped in. And I think that for me is really kind of where like the bulk of the work happens when I'm having those conversations is just like, let's just get clarity on what you actually care about. Do you have a mission? Do you have a purpose? Like, so for me, I feel like there's a call in my life to serve the church in some capacity. That's it. Super vague, super broad. when I was working at a church, I had a barbecue channel that was starting to take off.

And I never felt peace about quitting my job to invest in that and have that be my business. Now I kind of wish that happened, but I never felt peace about it. And so now I'm at a point where I'm able to serve churches in some capacity. And you know, the joke that I always say is I could be the janitor or the senior pastor. It doesn't matter anywhere in between. Now from the outside, I'm able to help churches. Okay. So what does that mean for me in my business? I need to figure out a way to help churches somehow.

And interestingly, what's kind of happening with Jump to Freelance is that people are leaving church ministry to start their own business positioned against helping churches. So now I'm looking at this and I'm like, there's an army of freelancers who can help five to 10 churches each, as opposed to one being on staff at one church. And I'm like, I love this. but, but at the end of the day, I've addressed some of the concerns that I have. I addressed some of the fears and insecurities.

and I have clarity on the mission and the goals that I'm trying to accomplish with my business. And so I'm going to build accordingly. And so I think getting to that root of the concerns, the fears, the values, what do you want, what don't you want, once you have clarity on a lot of those things, actually helps. It helps Hermosy's advice, Gary V's advice, Russell Brunson's, it helps all of their advice kind of like fracture in an appropriate way.

And so I'll say, I don't want the lead funnels or that, I don't want the click funnels that Russell does, but man, he's got great insights on this, the mission part, you know what I mean? Like having a business that honors your values or like moves forward what you believe. I love it. So I'll follow him and that's the stuff I'll pay, you know, specific attention to. Hermosy, it's like, I'm not going to work 14 hours a day. Thanks though. So like, but that's cool that people were doing it, but he posted something just the other day. was like,

Tim (46:19)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (46:22)
In order to win, like you do four hours on your business, four hours of execution and four hours of future planning. And I was like, well, that math doesn't look like the math that I would like to have in my business. I was talking to my wife about it. was like, but what if I took that same ratio and I did two hours, two hours, two hours? That's super interesting. Like, or what if I did one and a half, one and a half, but like whatever, whatever your, how much time you want to invest is, but, but you can still really learn a lot from these people.

Tim (46:32)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, the equation.

Matt Curtis (46:48)
I found early on, was starting to get confused a little bit and I'd like pick up the Gary V thing. And I'm like, look, if I'm not eating six bananas and working 16 hours, there's no shot for me. Like I got nothing, you know, and, that's just like not real. But, but when you have clarity on the things that you want out of your business and, they'll kind of the why behind what you're building, it just helps you build and it helps you filter really the insights. then from that build really kind of strategically and intentionally. And I have found.

Tim (47:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Matt Curtis (47:16)
the fear kind of melts away because now all of a sudden I get to do this. Like I get to build a business where I just had lunch with my family, you know, an hour and a half ago. And like I went to their orthodontist, my kid's orthodontist appointment, like, I drove with them, not because I had to, but because it meant that I get to be a little bit more present in their life for that period of time. Like that's crazy. So then in three months when I'm like, man, I don't, I don't know we have enough clients coming through.

I'm going to think back and say, yeah, but I was able to go to an orthodontist appointment and then go to Wawa for lunch. That was the biggest win of that day for me. I got to figure this out. And so it just really changes the nature of how you're approaching problems. They become things to solve. And you have a tenacity and a drive because you remember why you're doing this.

Tim (47:49)
Yeah.

Exactly. And that's, that was something when I was working the past two jobs I had before I went full time for myself, they were actually pretty, open. Like there wasn't a lot of structure. So in that way, it was almost like it was preparing me because no one was telling me what to do. I was in charge of myself and they were just like, Hey, you know, sell our products and just do the creative work. And that's, that was pretty much it. And so a lot of ways that kind of prepared me to

work for myself because no one was telling me what deadlines were. No one was telling me what exactly they were expecting of me, which was very frustrating in lot of ways because I'm like, how do I know I'm doing good job if you're not telling me what the job is I need to do? But the one thing I remember that I had really missed from when I was essentially like I was working freelance, but not because I wanted to. Like I was jobless. had

Matt Curtis (48:41)
Yep.

Tim (48:51)
I was getting freelance here and there just to pace for some bills, but I was living at home and it was a horrible situation. And I did have a car and so it was a kind of a nightmare. But there were times that I would look back fondly on and those times would be like me walking to the cafe and working for a few hours. You know, like that freedom that I really, it's like I had those rose tinted glasses looking back on probably the worst time of my life, but I enjoyed

Matt Curtis (49:11)
Hmm.

Tim (49:19)
the freedom and Now, know post all of that. I married I have a two-year-old daughter and Every day I get to have lunch with her for about an hour and hour really as long as I want to you know For being honest, I had good to see her in the morning. I'm not rushing into the work I can you know, like now she comes into our bed and then she she will sit down and cuddle me and we'll watch like a little video like one of our family memories on my iPhone and and so I'm like

Matt Curtis (49:32)
Mm-hmm.

Tim (49:46)
I wouldn't trade that for anything, you know, and like we're, we're expecting a son in August. And I'm like, I would trade everything to still do this, you know, like, and that's where I think like there is like to give some credit to her most, and even like Vaynerchuk, like there is a good component to it. Cause what, like at least the root of it, it's like work hard for the thing you want, you know,

Matt Curtis (49:48)
Yeah. ⁓

Absolutely,

Tim (50:11)
because we can't work passively at something and just expect all these results. And that's what I think the issue with a lot of like wannabe freelancers is they they're envisioning the freedom, but they're not actually envisioning the difficulty. Like I had a friend who wanted to be a freelancer and he would only the thing he would think about, he would only think about like, I can, I can decide to take the day off. And I'm like, if you're, if that's your dream,

Matt Curtis (50:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's called unemployment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tim (50:37)
you are just envisioning not working. That's, that's just you. You can do that now, you know, like,

but I'm like, your vision should be holistic, you know, and, and be reasonable with what, sometimes like I have to work, you know, there's times where I have deadlines I need to meet. And if I'm not meeting them, that means that there is less money and I'm like, and I want to build for the future. So that means like, all right, so I can't just

Matt Curtis (50:54)
Yep. Yep.

Tim (51:03)
kind of expect everything to fall into place. Like I think there's a component, you know, as believers, I'm like, all right, I trust that God has something good for me. And, it requires, it necessitates partnership. And so many people kind of take the root of everything will fall into place because it's destined to happen. But I'm like, but it's contingent on your obedience, you know, and you know, just kind of to get a little bit in theology, like

And so even believer, not believer, you cannot expect things just to fall into place if you're not doing any of the work to get to that place. And, and so kind of to wrap that up, like freelancing is such an amazing thing. And I don't wish everyone could do it because it it's a lot, you know, are there people like you, you were like, Hey, freelancing is not for you. Have you met those people or, or

Matt Curtis (51:47)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and I think, I mean, think a lot of it goes back to what you're saying about just the willingness to work, you know, cause I think, cause I I'm, I'm with you. love what I love what, you know, Gary V and, and, her Moses you're talking about. I agree a hundred percent that you do have to work in order to build. think for me, it was, I didn't want to build what they were building. And so my path could look different, but at the end of the day, you absolutely have to put in the work. And so there's, there, there are some people that

Tim (52:07)
Yep, yep. Sure.

Matt Curtis (52:15)
Um, I mean, I'll use the word discipline because I think that's, that's kind of a layer of it. You have to, you have to create an environment and a rhythm in your life that, that really does dedicate energy and time toward the work that needs to get done. And sometimes that means that you don't get as long of a lunch as you'd like other times you can, you know, and so there are some times where, know, as we're talking about plans and things that are going on for it with our family.

I can't be a part of that one because you know, X, Y, and Z is happening. I think if you're not willing to do that work and to recognize that it all falls on you, on your shoulders, I think that's a pretty problematic situation for you to be walking into freelance. If you're gonna make the jump, it means that nobody else is there to help. Kind of the way that I say it is, there are zero people on planet Earth that are concerned about

lunchtime heroes right now, other than me and my wife probably, but she's like, I mean, it could be a different business. doesn't get, you know what I mean? But like there's, there's nobody that's going out of their way to make sure that lunchtime heroes stays afloat. It's all on me. Now, hopefully over time, I build an audience of people that really appreciate the work that I'm doing. I've been helpful to them. They love the contributions I'm making to the creative ministry space, whatever.

Tim (53:16)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (53:35)
Like hopefully there are people that I, I, you know, kind of I create that audience, but at end of the day, they're not helping me do the work. You know what I mean? I'm not like, Hey guys, I may not make it, may make it this month. They're not sending me checks for no reason, you know? So, so ultimately. If you're going to make the jump, it is something that you need to own and you need to fully own. And this is where, for me, that hobby to business mindset, like I, I call it freelance because, that is a.

lower mental hurdle for people to accept. If I say you should start a business, a lot of people freak out. So really I'm just tricking people because one of the things that I talk about really early on is you need to stop thinking about this like a hobby and you just start thinking about it like a business. Sure, a one person business, that's fine, but it's a business because you still have to operate, you have to have systems and processes and procedures. I even go as far as saying it's really helpful to have values.

Tim (54:08)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (54:29)
I understand you're not convincing seven other people to buy into these values. You don't have to put them in cursive on the wall. You know, that's fine. But you need something that says there is a structure and a system around what I'm doing and what I'm building because that's typically where success is found is when you have that type of a structure. And so if you're resistant to that, if you're like, I don't know, I don't feel, you know, I feel like I can just sort of wing it. cannot wing it. Those that is not, and I think this is where a lot of creative struggle.

We tend to be really abstract. tend to be really, you know, I always say we're artsy fartsy, like, oh wow, I was really inspired by this the other day. That's cool, but being inspired isn't how you make reliable money. I had an interesting conversation with the worship guy. We were talking about Christmas. We always did this like big, big thing for Christmas Eve services. And I just remember we're sitting in this meeting and he said, you know, he was like the person who made the decisions.

Tim (55:01)
Yeah?

Matt Curtis (55:21)
He's like, you know, I don't really know if I like where we're landing right now, but I mean, you know how creativity is, right? I'll just like be inspired later and like, then we can move forward. And I turned to him and I'm not this kind of guy usually, but I was like, nope. I said, okay, hold on a second, because that is not how creativity works. So you're telling me the next time you come to my department and you ask us for support and we're like, sorry, I missed your deadline. We just weren't feeling it.

It doesn't work that way. And so there's a difference between being a professional creative and being somebody who likes creative things. And I think that's really where the rubber meets the road for success in a freelance. If you recognize that this takes work, if this recognizes that you're going to have to turn in a logo at the deadline, whether you feel like the heavens have opened and the choir of angels have sung and given you an idea or not, like,

Tim (55:53)
Yeah.

Matt Curtis (56:13)
Can you figure out how to manufacture ideas and do this in a way that can sustain a client load and that kind of thing? Those are the kinds of things for me that I kind of like explore as I'm having those conversations. But yeah, if somebody's not willing to accept that they, if they're not willing to own the challenges that they're about to face, freelance is not a great decision, you know? And again, you can dabble in this on the side, pick up clients, see if you like it, see if it's something that you want to do, but there really does have to be

a it is up to me to make this work type of tenacity that that person has for it to really have the best chance as possible to be successful.

Tim (56:54)
yeah, that's so good. So for the people that are wanting to make the jump to freelance, where can they find you and how can you help them?

Matt Curtis (56:58)
Yeah.

Yeah, the best place to find me would be LinkedIn. it's kind of counter to all of who I am as a creative, but, I've really leaned into that space a lot because I found that there are a lot of people that are working corporate jobs who are actually creatives and wish that they weren't. And so that's where I post a ton of content. I always think of it as three different tiers. I have a podcast it's called the jet moment stories of people who have done this. They're, they're further down the road. Most of them further down the road than me.

and they just share what was that thing for them that caused them to make the jump. I've learned a ton in the process. So even if you don't listen, I'm having a great time recording them. And then I post a lot of content that's just hopefully helpful content to kind of like move people a little bit. Like, man, I never thought of it that way. Or, yeah, that's really helpful practical tip or something like that. In terms of if you want to go further than that, I have a group on school, it's the Jump to Freelance group. I look at it as decentralized coaching.

Every week we have a live talk where we're talking about a specific topic that relates to the foundations of building a freelance business. And then I do one-to-one coaching as well. If you're like, I lost my job and I got to build this really fast. so jump to freelance.com is where most of that stuff is. I have to check the site to make sure, but really LinkedIn is the best place to find me.

Tim (58:11)
Thanks so much for coming on the creative Grove your very first podcast guest for this so Really appreciate you doing this I want to thank everyone for listening to this episode of the creative Grove and if you want to listen to more You know where to find us. Thank you so much, Matt

Matt Curtis (58:28)
Yeah, my pleasure.